This is what we all need http://www.feltracing.com/09/images/catalog/xl/8909.png.
Aero road bikes are where it is at! Mostly I just put this up here to increase the level of bike porn in our forums.
Tribikes are so old news...this is where it's at.
I feel like this should be
I feel like this should be the official dispute resolution method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIWia1xQRGU&feature=related
Imagine it on road bikes at ~30mph
Andy Wyatt
Just my 2
Just my 2 cents..........
First of all, added weight from farings vs drag benefit. I imagine both of them are fairly small numbers, but that brings me to my first point. WHY? you buy a raod bike for the road, to climb, and descend, and to sprint. You buy a TT bike for aero.
Second point: Front wheel cutout. TERRIBLE idea. think about all the time you would spend in a road bike with the front wheel not EXACTLY in line with your frame tube......that very "aero" front wheel cut out just turns into a very "usless" parachute.
Point C: That fork looks pretty weak....lots of AERO benefit can come from a good fork, but that looks pretty normal......Felt are obviously dumb dumbs.
LAST POINT. Position. even the most aggressive of road positions are still fairly up right. your not exactly going to have a flat back with a road bike geometrey. So the few grams of drag you save with the AERONESS gets thrown out the window when you put a rider on that bike.
AS for me, ill take my cheap, dirty, aluminum, sail-like KHS any day. ITS NOT ABOUT THE BIKE
Jessica Boessneck
Tractor hit those points
Tractor hit those points right on the head. I need to say nothing. You knowledge of cycling ceases to amaze me brother. Felt obviously made this bike to appeal to tri geeks, no offense to anyone, but round tubes will trump aero tubes all day. Since so little modifications can be made to current frames, companies are forced to "spice" up a frame with cool, fast looking angles and cut-outs which are completely useless. Felt is so un-Euro BTW.
Its coming. Cervelo has aero
Its coming. Cervelo has aero road frames as well already such as the S3 or their famed soloist line. The Kestrel Talon is also an aero frame.
http://www.cervelo.com/bikes.aspx?bike=S32009
First Point: The Colnago 2009 CX-1 weighs in around 1010g (top end racing bike for 2009)
http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/103499337/Colnago_2009_CX_1_Revolution_Ca...
The Felt ARs are weighing in at 1200g for a 56cm frame and most people list weight for a 54 so expect probably 1150g.
So you are talking about .3 pounds.
Then you can check out the Cervelo Aero frame which weighs in just under 1000g. So Aero and lighter and even rivaling the supposed weight of the '09 prince coming which is supposed to be around 900 grams. So weight, not an issue.
And as far as I am concerned it is still road geometry which means you can still climb, sprint, descend...just with less wind drag...I fail to see how that can hurt.
Second point: I don't actually believe it is a cut-out. Cut-out implying in my mind that they place a cut into the smooth surface of the frame in which to hide a wheel to try and reduce the drag. What I think it is that the shaped the down tube farther out to follow the shape of the wheel because it creates a surface for turbulent air to follow back along the back as opposed to buffeting around. Won't know until I can actually look at one head on. Never mind, I found the picture. Review here and you can see what I am talking about, no real cut out just a shaping of the downtube to follow the wheel profile and not a movement of the wheel to the down tube.
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2008/10/interbike-felt-ar.html
(picture is about half way down the page).
Point C: I don't know about the fork specifically but I know the only reason it is there instead of the TT bayonette in an attempt to bring the weight down. If this fork is anything like the Bayonette in quality though...it will be rock solid. The bayonette fork has actually been one of the best fork innovations to come out in a while so...not dumb dumbs.
LAST POINT: The rider is also the largest source of weight so should we not bother with weight on a frame...which you were arguing for in your first point? Maybe you should just ride an all steel mountain bike in races because the bike obviously doesn't matter.
The Real last point! Bike innovation at the top level creates trickle down effects that make riding more fun and faster for every one involved. Whether you like Felt or not you have to acknowledge that they force innovation into the rest of the industry which makes every bike manufacturer decide if the innovation is truly useful. Either way us as the consumers win. I was more drawing note to the innovation and the blending of the things that we do (cycling/TT style racing) and the fact that it could be a great cross-over bike.
There's only one point to
There's only one point to this thread really. Cervelo's are the best freaking bikes in the world. End of story. Thank you Brian for bringing that to everyone's attention...
And I might add that a cervelo R3 built up with mavic kyserium SLs weighs in at 16.0 lbs, is the sexiest bike EVER, but unfortunately, won't make you a better cyclist... it will definitely make you feel like one though!
HAHA
side note: vroomen and white
side note: vroomen and white are the designers of cervelo... the greatest bikes of all time.
Ok seriously back to studying.. One more point though, all this banter is silly. the difference between a really expensive bike and a ridiculously expensive bike is just that... money! The only thing that really matters from bike to bike is:
1. your fit on the bike
2. if it works for you or not
case study: 3 or so years ago 2 guys showed up for the shootout in women's bikes with baskets and bells on them (this is a true story by the way)... everyone made endless amounts of fun of them... how un-euro they were etc. until they pulled, attacked to form break-aways, and worked together to make it over sprint hill first and second... Now don't get too excited these guys happend to be world-class prfessional cyclists out for a laugh, but I think the story drives points 1 and 2. <gasps for air> that's all for me for one night....
PEOPLE PEOPLE, please, if
PEOPLE PEOPLE, please, if you want a real bike, you need this:
http://www.core77.com/blog/images/oryx.jpg
this bike is aero, no doubt about it. it just needs pedals...euro ones of course andys...
Hahaha Neil. That is sexy!
I
Hahaha Neil. That is sexy!
I guess people missed that this was mostly tongue in cheek. I was basically just posting a cool looking bike. Sure its a great bike but I made a joke about the price too because really...9 grand for a bike?
Obviously the rider is the most important part, no one is going to argue that. But I just love to watch the innovations that come out on bikes because it is cool to see what people come up with. That is all I was pointing out...there is some cool new frame design going into this felt line and it is cool to see the first real representation of Tri/TT technology put into a road frame. Cerevlo and Talon made slightly aero frames but this goes a step beyond that. Whether it is useful or not who knows, I just think it is cool seeing the two disciplines merge.
Brian Grasky
Wow. This post has been fun
Wow. This post has been fun to follow. Let it ride!!
1. Cannondale SuperSix, SRAM Force, Reynolds DV...all American. 15.25# or go Scott Addict and SRAM; also American, 14.6#. I'm just sayin'. ;)
Aero tubes are nice and pretty, innovative and sexy. This is where the market, and thus the advertising, pro teams and riders, and photos in magazines is going. But you take 1cm off the width of a tube to make it narrow and add a bit of weight to make it aero. At 30mph you'll get a benefit of, nominally, 20-25%. At 17-18mph, it's closer to 8-10%. Now take a rider with a shoulder width of 45cm, add a height of 50-60cm and legs that are very un-aero moving against he airflow, and that aero frame benefit in the realm of insignifinant. Proper fit is more important than aero of light by a factor of around 300.
But since we're on the topic of aero...both the Cannondale Slice and the Scott Plasma2 fared better than the Cervelo P3C in the wind tunnel. Again, just sayin'. :)
Lastly, look at all the aero innovation over the last 10 years and compare the finishing times and bike splits in Kona. Are the bike splits significantly faster? Nope. They're on average 2-3 minutes faster. Are the overall finishing times faster? No. Slower, actually, showing to me that guys are over-racing the bike and running slower. (Are siwm times faster. Definitely, so innovation in the water is manifesting itself.) Kona overall records were set in the mid- to late-90s and have not been challenged yet. Chrissy got the run course record this year and good for here. (I think she's head-and-shoulders above the previous winners, but the way, so maybe not a good data point.) The fastest runs were still Dave and Mark in 1989. Paula set the bike course record in, what, 1994 on a basic 650c aluminum frame, no aero helmet and water bottles on the frame. Jurgen's 4:27 bike in 1995 on a Softride with Corima 4-spokes is still among the fastest rides on the books. In my opinion aero helmets are slowing bike times by interfering with the cooling properties important in hot races like Kona.
The best innovations to come along in my opinion: Power Meters and Heart Rate monitors, and the associated studies and intstructions on using them.
Now, all that said...
Do I have an aero-tubed tri bike? Yup.
Will I wear an aero helmet in cool races? You betcha.
Do I think aero tubes matter on a road bike when races are ridden in a pack and are won and lost in a sprint. Nope.
Heh...look what I started.
Heh...look what I started. As I said, the title was tongue in cheek.
I was more saying an aero tubed bike would be cool if you could only own a single bike (because that is my current perspective) so that you could do road races and when you set up the bike for a tri you get some of the aero advantage. That and I thought it looked cool.
I am not saying I want to pay the prices they are asking or that it was even effective, just thought it was cool in concept.
As for wind tunnel tests was that by an independent tester or was that a company sponsored test? (And what about the P4 ;) ). I think the lack of a standard testing procedure allows each manufacturer to tweak numbers in their favor. If is was independent that rocks though. I heard that the new TTX's were posting really good numbers in the wind tunnel as well.
Brian Grasky
Great points, Brian. Wind
Great points, Brian. Wind tunnel data from a non-independent tester are all skewed, and are only valid for the specific situation tested. The one I cited was an independent test, but I can't point you to the data or test conditions. Trek doesn't release data or send in equipment to test, so little in known there, but I've heard the same thing. The only P4 test data is Cervelo's own (since it's just been release and isn't availble) but according to Cervelo, it's the most aero frame to date. Now, they do admit that if you take away the goofy and silly (my opinion) water bottle thing in the bottom braket area the open brackets significantly increase the drag on that frame, taking away a lot of the aero benefit.
But great thoughts and ideas. Except Makko's that Cervelos are cool. ;)
Haha. I read about that, you
Haha. I read about that, you lose significant performance if you even just leave the area empty. You can replace the water bottle with a tool kit or something, but I think reaching all the way to the BB for an oddly shaped 20 oz water bottle was not the best way to go.
Hey guys, I think we just
Hey guys, I think we just need to cool it and take a step back. Do you remember what the original argument was? It was about being more EURO, not more AERO. Forget the silly drag numbers, because remember rule number 1, image and style shall be your primary concern. When suffering, one must
focus first on maintaining a cool, even composure, and second on
performance. Winning races is an added talent, and only counts if said
euro cyclist wins with appropriate style. No "aero-tubed" wannabe road bike will ever provide the appropriate styling needed to be Euro. Let's just try and compose ourselves here, come on. Just HTFU and get on the road. Every second wasted looking up drag numbers and pictures of ugly Felts is time that could be spent increasing your fitness, and Euroness.
Brian Grasky
Andy Wyatt
I think a point should be
I think a point should be made on the difference between innovation and change.
Innovation is a product of evolution that greatly benefits the market in some way. For example, STI shifters over frame tube shifters. This is a pretty obvious one, performance enhancing, ride enhancing etc etc.
Change is just doing something different. For example, for a while people were putting really smal wheels in front, giant wheels in back, and having rediculous gear ratios because it was said to increase wattage. Sure, it might have increased peak watts on the bike, but position and comfort, as well as ride-ability were greatly sacrificed.
Although I dont exactly see aero tubes as being detrimental to cycling, I do see it as just a marketing gimmick. Come on brian, your a business major....you should see this too. What is a growing trend in cycling/ triathlon/ multisport? BUYING speed. Consumers are on this giant quest to purchase faster race times, and companies are willing to lie to them in order to sell there product.
AERO road bike: "ohh, this must be faster, therefore making me faster, therefore decreasing the amount of work I actually have to put in to this sport in order to be fast."
We need to stop reinforcing negative behavior. Next time youre at a race and you see a guy on a kestrel with a aero helmet and a loose fitting t-shirt, take a minute and YELL at him. Same goes for TT bikes coupled with camel back wearing riders. It needs to stop.
training
training consistently/intelligently and recovering properly are numero uno (in my, what, one year experience of triathlon thus far, lol).
andy, agreed on some points (like going aero with camel back is counterproductive, etc.), however, i wouldn't assume that individuals purchasing the latest greatest aero are doing so so they don't have to put in more work. if someone handed me a p3c, zipps, and an aero helmet i'd work just as hard if not harder and be that much faster. certainly wouldn't sandbag. on the other hand, some people are just doing tris "for fun" and don't care if their loose fitting shirt negates the reduced drag their aero frame provides. if i saw someone wearing a tshirt on their felt DA and i was passing them, i'd just keep moving along. to each his own and let the times fall where they may.
i could also see a situation in which someone buys a sweet aero frame road bike and it makes them want to train more on the bike because they are so happy with and proud of their new ride.
my guess would be at the pro level and super competitive age group level people may be more obsessed with the latest greatest in aero in order to hold watts constant (and i'm assuming they use power meters) but decrease the bike split, thereby gaining free speed without negatively affecting run times. pure speculation here.
Andy Wyatt
Thanks. I had a lot of good
Thanks. I had a lot of good points posted but they were done in a very unfriendly manner. Instead of cause any kind of drama I just deleted them and for some odd reason it left that haha.
As a new point I did find a bike much more suited to me than that Felt.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/57/221195633_36e20d0faa.jpg
It was made for someone with my affinty for asphalt.
409 users,
878 topics and
5588 replies so far.
Joined: 2007-08-21